Saeima of the Republic of Latvia

Interviewer.

What do you remember about the moment when, for example, the declaration of independence was adopted?

A. Gorbunovs.

Well, first of all, what I distinctly remember about the Putsch is that when OMON troops and the army captured the radio station… right at that moment the radio was playing the national anthem “God Bless Latvia!” It was at night. Yes, that was extremely emotional for me.

I wasn’t chairing the sitting; I just came downstairs for it. So much was going on – the phones just kept ringing. Questions were coming from everywhere – from foreign journalists, etc… Fulfilling the functions of Chairman of the Supreme Council and being head of state at the same time was very time-consuming and sometimes frustrating… from the perspective of protocol... A helicopter was circling the Supreme Council building while the Constitutional Law was being adopted; that meant that information had been leaked about what was going on in the Supreme Council.

Furthermore, when the Constitutional Law had been adopted, I remember Aivars Berķis, member of the Supreme Council, had climbed up on the stone wall surrounding the Supreme Council building and was reading the Constitutional Law out loud because the radio station had been shut down… Like that… And there was an armoured personnel carrier in the Dome Square.

Interviewer.

How did you find out about the Putsch?

A. Gorbunovs.

I wouldn’t say I panicked. I understood that bad things were starting to happen. Members of the Supreme Council weren’t panicking. Of course, they were nervous, but there wasn’t any panic. That calmed me down somehow, and I kept hoping that the Supreme Council of the USSR and the Congress of People’s Deputies would keep functioning. In fact, there were no sanctions or restrictions against the Congress of People’s Deputies and the Supreme Council of the USSR... That gave rise to the hope that the issue was still debatable. There was no information on Gorbachev. Supposedly, he had fallen ill. After the Presidium adopted the statement, I presented it on the radio. Afterwards Fyodor Kuzmin, Commander of the Baltic Military District, called me. He had lost all his respectability then.

Interviewer.

What did he say?

A. Gorbunovs.

He said two things. To me personally – if I dare to do something like that again, I will certainly be arrested – I could count on that. And second, not to even think of summoning people to the barricades because he had enough tanks.

Interviewer.

What did you say in that statement?

A. Gorbunovs.

I recall that rather qualified people drafted that statement – Ilmārs Bišers, member of the Supreme Council, Ivars Godmanis, Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Republic of Latvia, and some others took part. The statement condemned the Putsch, declared it unlawful, called upon people not to support it, and proclaimed that the only legitimate source of authority was the Supreme Council of the Republic of Latvia.

Interviewer.

Anatolijs, during the Putsch you met with Edmunds Johansons, Chairman of the KGB of the Republic of Latvia. What did he say to you?

A. Gorbunovs.

In short, he informed me that the situation was serious. I didn’t really understand whether he was on the putschists’ side.

Interviewer.

Where was he?

A. Gorbunovs.

I don’t remember. If he announced that situation was serious… He said: “Anatolijs, it’s serious.” I knew myself that it was serious.

Interviewer.

But weren’t you guarded by his people?

A. Gorbunovs.

Yes.... I don’t remember now at what time exactly, but I used to spend nights at the building of the Supreme Council, and one time I was told to spend the night in the forest with a forest ranger. Unfortunately, I don’t remember which night that was exactly. Reason for that was… The security officer just said to me: “You can expect anything from OMON, especially against you.” It must have been the next day when I called Boris Pugo, Minister for the Interior of the USSR. I didn’t call Anatoly Lukyanov, Chairman of the Supreme Council of the USSR. I called Pugo. That’s when a ray of hope broke through. As a member of the Supreme Council, I asked official questions on the legal status and so... And then simply, on the basis of familiarity, I asked: “What would be…? What, how, when and who will…? When will you give this for approval to the Supreme Council?” Something like that.

The answers were so unconvincing that I had the impression that nothing had been clearly decided. Of course, they wouldn’t disclose everything anyway; I didn’t expect to be told everything, but he didn’t even give me a plausible story.

Interviewer.

During the Putsch, did you feel that harm could come not only to you but to your family as well?

A. Gorbunovs.

Of course. But I didn’t focus on it; I wasn’t sitting there trembling although my assistants say they could see my revolver on the table under the pile papers. There was no panic in the Supreme Council; everyone was getting ready... One sitting took place at 5 a.m.; it says so in the transcript: 5:47 a.m. – Sitting. There wasn’t anyone to chair it – it was chaired by Imants Daudišs, Secretary of the Supreme Council. If you keep busy instead of just waiting and worrying about what will happen, then, of course, it’s different.

Interviewer.

How did your family react at that time? Were they a stable support?

A. Gorbunovs.

Yes.

Interviewer.

Dainis Īvāns, Deputy Chairman of the Supreme Council, said that it wasn’t so easy. Guided by past experience, his relatives had told him: “Don’t get involved!”

A. Gorbunovs.

No, it was different for me. First off all, with whom did I have contact? My son and my wife. The rest of my relatives sort of distanced themselves from me; that is to say, they didn’t broadcast the fact that they were my relatives, and thus they themselves… Except my mother’s brother… Once I said something, and he scolded me a bit, and said: “Don’t be careful… you support this and that.”

Interviewer.

Anatolijs, could you tell me a bit more about the meeting with Yeltsin after the Putsch ended? You headed the delegation that met with him.

A. Gorbunovs.

What I remember first and foremost is that we were greeted as guests or partners. Yeltsin had already made changes – at least appointed Vadim Bakatin as the Chairman of the Committee for State Security... And he not only listened to us politely but also took action. For example, our request was satisfied. In fact, Yeltsin made a call in our presence and requested the removal of Fyodor Kuzmin from heading the Baltic Military District, and so it was. Only – we asked Bakatin about the KGB files. He went on and on but didn’t really promise anything.

Another thing I remember, and Jānis Peters, member of the Supreme Council of the USSR from Latvia and poet, later wrote about it in his memoirs, is that Bakatin asked me who was guarding me and I had replied: “The Committee for State Security.” And he, as the Chairman of the Committee for State Security, said: “You are a brave man.”

I remember the so-called Russian White House – at that time it was the Supreme Council of Russia, where the government now sits, I think. And that was even after… We crept into the White House over all these barricades that were placed there. And there was Alexandr Rutskoy, a member of the Supreme Council of Russia, with a machine gun… and gas masks.... And when Yeltsin… I didn’t really believe that Yelstin would give us that statement of recognition.

Interviewer.

You didn’t know what was in store for you – what kind of document?

A. Gorbunovs.

I didn’t know. We wanted… We started talking about this and that, and then Yeltsin said: “All right, I know the main thing that you want.” So we said:  “Of course.” But it wasn’t officially planned that we would receive the confirmation of independence or its recognition; there was nothing of the kind.

Interviewer,

The events were so compressed that you could live half a year in just one day.

A. Gorbunovs.

That is why it is difficult now to remember everything because so much was happening all at once. There wasn’t even time to be nervous or anything because so much was going on. We had to act; we had to make decisions and work.

Interviewer.

The fact that Russia recognized… and that a succession of smaller countries followed suit… does that mean that these other smaller countries might have imagined a different scenario?

A. Gorbunovs.

The big countries were still looking at Gorbachev. Yes, they supported his policy.... It wasn’t that they didn’t recognise the independence of the Baltic States, but overall Gorbachev’s policy of openness and democracy, all the things he was doing – they supported that. That is why they were carefully following the processes with Gorbachev, the processes in the Soviet Union....

Interviewer.

After recognition of independence, did the Soviet Union, or rather Gorbachev, have a serious role in Latvian foreign policy?

A. Gorbunovs.

I don’t think so. We rather took it to heart that we had proclaimed our independence, but it wasn’t recognised even though we had set a transition period for ourselves. But that is why we were very sensitive on the issue, and we fervently pledged our independence and declared that the President of the USSR had no legitimacy.