Saeima of the Republic of Latvia

Interviewer.

Where were you at the time of the Putsch? What were you doing at that time?

D. Īvāns.

Well, yes… Naturally, the Putsch was a surprise to everyone, except to its organisers. However, it is possible that it was a surprise even to them because one of the theories is that they were sitting, drinking vodka and decided to act; as our diplomat Aivars Stranga put it: “Whatever will be, will be”.

At that time, I was in Stockholm on a vacation, and I was taking an English language course organised by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Sweden which I would have finished successfully and thus would have known a language that would be useful in this peaceful life.

But one fine day at 7 a.m. the phone rang in the flat where I was staying in Stockholm, and I was told to switch on the TV because there was Putsch in Latvia. Of course, I didn’t understand exactly what that was. By coincidence, I was not alone in Stockholm; there was also Estonian Prime Minister Edgar Savisaar. We had met the previous day and talked to Swedish diplomats. There was a social function and, of course, neither I nor he, who, in my opinion, is a wise and far-sighted politician, had any inkling that something like that could happen. Of course, on the Swedish TV they were showing scenes from the Putsch. We didn’t know what was actually happening; we knew only about their statements. And then I arranged it with the Swedish airline company that they would register me… In other words, I would get a ticket, I would buy that ticket, but I would not be on the passenger list. Somebody else would be registered instead of me. Just for the sake of… Because we didn’t know what was going on and what to expect... In other words, those, who would check the passenger list would see that I was not on that plane.

And we landed in a completely empty airport in Riga. It was empty at one end, but the other end was full of immigrant Latvians who were fleeing from Latvia. Yes… a risk zone.

And then our wonderful bridges with armoured personnel carriers that had taken their positions to prevent the mistakes made in January. And then I came to the Supreme Council. You went about your own business....

Interviewer.

I was with Ivars Godmanis, Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Republic of Latvia, ...

D. Īvāns.

... It was the strangest situation in the Supreme Council. There were members of the Supreme Council who were just sitting and doing nothing. They sat like that in January, and they had decided merely to sit now... Because they had no idea what to do. I, who, of course, had not witness that situation, started screaming: “Why aren’t you doing something?” I said that we have to act. But they responded: “Dainis, but we cannot do anything… there is no radio, no television. We are in an information vacuum.” And then, I don’t know why, but I said: “But we can go to the Monument of Freedom; we can talk to people.” And then we scheduled hours when we were going to go to the Monument of Freedom and go out of the Supreme Council building to simply inform the people about what is happening where, when and how.

But in general, the normal system was destroyed. That is why there was that confusion in the Supreme Council. And then activity began. Of course, there was the suggestion to erect barricades and to call people to the barricades again, but that was practically impossible at that time. We simply started to reason that we should resume normal work. If I’m not mistaken, we even resumed the sittings of the Supreme Council at which we had nothing to adopt because there was nothing to announce because we didn’t know what would happen... And there were so many things happening all at once.

Then we thought that we should meet General Fyodor Kuzmin, Commander of the Baltic Military District, and to ask him plainly what was going on. Because who was in charge? They were uncertain about that as well. Only Alfrēds Rubiks, a member of the Politburo of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, First Secretary of the Communist Party of Latvia and Chairman of the State Committee for Emergency Situations, was threatening to arrest us. Others stood in the background and did not stick their necks out.

But Kuzmin was one of the major supporters of the Putsch. And I remember that I approached Gapoņenko, a member of the Supreme Council and general of the Baltic Border Troops. I said that I wanted to talk to Kuzmin and asked if he could guarantee that I would come out alive from Kuzmin’s Headquarters of the Baltic Military District. Gapoņenko said: “I will call him. Make an appointment.” Kuzmin replied that he was ready to see me. And I, together with Aleksandrs Mirļins, Press Secretary of the Supreme Council, entered those super-secured Headquarters of the Baltic Military District... There were numerous cordons... Apparently they were either mobilising their forces, or they were afraid. Security was unbelievably tight. And there we met Kuzmin. We could see that apparently he was receiving some news indicating that the Putsch had not been as successful as intended because he was not full of bravado as he had been with Ivars when he asked him to surrender. And he said: “But you… What do you want?” And I said: “I want you to withdraw the soldiers from the streets of Riga because we should not agitate people and threaten them with armoured personnel carriers. That is a city!” Just like that... We were talking as if nothing had happened. He said: “We will withdraw the soldiers, but you must promise me not to attack them.” I replied: “Yes, of course, we promise that we will not attack the soldiers.” – “But promise me that you will not demand immediate withdrawal.” I said: „Well, yes. Immediate withdrawal is unrealistic – immediate removal of your troops is impractical.” That’s how our discussion ended. I just said: “But will you keep an eye on the ‘black berets’ and keep them from getting involved?” Yes, yes, he said, the troops will not interfere; they won’t do anything.

But then, when I returned to the Supreme Council, Gapoņenko called me once again and whispered into the phone: “The master will return soon.” It was as if  he were hinting that apparently a plane had been sent to pick up Gorbachev.

But nothing was completely clear. And then we... The sitting of the Supreme Council on 21 August was convened. And Andrejs Krastiņš, Deputy Chairman of the Supreme Council, said: “We do not know what will happen. We must immediately adopt a declaration, a decision that we establish... manifest Latvia’s full independence from the Soviet Union. In other words, we must repeal the transition period and become independent as of this moment.”

This declaration was drafted swiftly. I guess that happened in the office of Andrejs Krastiņš. It was not discussed very much; it was submitted directly to the Supreme Council. I had to chair that sitting. I don’t know where Anatolijs Gorbunovs, Chairman of the Supreme Council, was; he was not there, and I was the one who chaired that sitting. During the debate, when members of the Supreme Council started to play their roles of members of the Supreme Council and began to split hairs – a comma was in the wrong place, a word was insufficiently radical or, on the contrary, it was too radical. While they were arguing, one of the security officers came to me and said: “Tanks are approaching the Supreme Council building.” They turned out to be armoured personnel carriers of the ‘black berets’. With some objections from members of the Supreme Council who wanted to keep arguing, we adopted that document just as it was.

And then an avalanche of events followed. At first, OMON troops tried to break through the barricades which remained around the building of the Supreme Council since January. Outside the building there was Romualds Ražuks, a member of the Popular Front, and other members of the Popular Front. The OMON troops tried to drive them away with their rubber batons, there were anti-tank devices – so-called hedgehogs – laid on the streets. Then there was silence; they withdrew and left after a moment, but we did not know what was really happening. And then came information that the Putsch in Moscow had failed. We simply had to act swiftly, to take over all public institutions; we probably made some mistakes by not acting decisively enough. To some extent, people were cautious, and there was no certainty that adoption of that declaration meant that we were now free because no one had recognised our independence. And then came Jānis Škapars, a member of the Supreme Council. He approached the Presidium and said: “We have to take over all military commissariats immediately.” And Ivars Godmanis, a member of the Supreme Council, shouted: “No, no! You will cause bloodshed!” As always, Ivars saw everything and felt the responsibility of this world more intensely. And we – the entire Presidium – witnessed a dreadful scene – they were shouting behind the doors, and then Ivars was collaring Škapars back inside the chamber and shouting: “Who does this Škapars thinks he is?” Does he want to cause bloodshed?... But it has to be admitted that the Presidium coolly supported the proposal of Škapars. The order was given to take over all possible military commissariats in a decent fashion. And that turned out to be the right choice because the military commissariats offered no resistance.

The Supreme Council established a committee – I think it was chaired by Odisejs Kostanda, a member of the Supreme Council – which had to arrest Alfrēds Rubiks at the Central Committee. Apparently, Rubiks and his cohorts had already managed to burn some documents there. I, however, went to a demonstration.

I went to a demonstration where I was supposed to make a stirring speech. While I was discoursing about our freedom, somebody approached me. I think it was Jānis Dinevičs, member of the Supreme Council, and he said to me: “Dainis, Rubiks was just arrested. People should know!”

And I said to the people: “I will interrupt my floods of words: Alfrēds Rubiks has just been arrested!” And then... Actually, there was silence at that moment; there was no ovation. An old lady who was standing close in front of me grabbed her head and fainted. I don’t know why – did she faint because she felt sorry for Rubiks or because she did not believe that something like that could happen? Afterwards, of course, applause and ovations erupted.

Naturally, then the next step had to be taken – all monuments had to be pulled down. It was a significant symbolic act because even... ethologists, who study human instincts inherited from animals, have concluded that pulling down an empire’s monuments is a animal instinct in nations as part of population that impels them to erase traces of its enemy and to dispose of its garbage. And therefore pulling down of Lenin’s monument, if I’m not mistaken, wasn’t a demonstratively humane act; it was an act by which we freed ourselves from instinctive slavery within ourselves.

What followed next, I think, was...  Yes, it was like in a dream, like in a fairy-tale, but we, you yourself remember everything quite clearly, woke up in an entirely new...

Interviewer.

What, in your opinion, was the political meaning of the Putsch? In my opinion, the goal was not defined by the circumstances of that time; the organisers were not active, they were afraid to address people as convincing leaders, and this ridiculous fable about Gorbachev... And here several examples could be mentioned... What was it? Was it a conscious activity or an expression of death throes?

D. Īvāns.

Well, we called it an agony already back then. As I said in all those interviews on TV, they were merely agonising since Jaunary. Maybe we said it with too much bravado, but sometimes such incidental formulations said with bravado are the most precise. Because actually in January they had already realised that the army did not support them – did not support! Even now we can find evidence about the Air Defence Battalion of the Pskov region that refused to fire on civilians living here; and we know the story about Edgar Savisaar and Dzhokhar Dudayev, who was the Commander of the air base of the Soviet Strategic Air Force in Tartu, Estonia, and who promised that his unit would not attack peaceful civilians. Therefore, Yeltsin requested the army to take the side of the new Russian Federation instead of the Soviet Union. This request was fulfilled because generals took Russia’s side, and when a general takes someone’s side, his unit has no other choice because the army has its own code of discipline.

Apparently putschists were not sure about their power. However, one question is still not clear, and we have discussed it often – was Gorbachev arrested?

Interviewer.

Which side was he on?

D. Īvāns.

...Was Gorbachev arrested? It is possible that at that point Gorbachev himself did not know on whose side he was. In a way, he was a hostage.

Interviewer.

If the Putsch had not failed and there had been a coup, would you have accepted the offer to emigrate? And what about your family?

D. Īvāns.

Absolutely not because I was here...

Interviewer.

But if the other option had been Siberia?

D. Īvāns.

I don’t know... Then I would have to tell a lot... But I doubt it... It’s not my nature. I think that I am the kind of person who would rather die than become disgraced.