Saeima of the Republic of Latvia

Interviewer.

Did you feel that something was up before the Putsch, or was it unexpected? Where were you at that time?

I. Godmanis.

There were no indications about any Putsch.

Interviewer.

What were you doing when you heard… on Monday morning? It was… on Monday morning. What was the first information you received?

I. Godmanis.

I got the first information when I was coming out of the sea after a morning swim in Jūrmala where I was living. I was met by Vaznis, Minister for the Interior, and Bunka, Chief of Security, who told me that it’s the end – the end in a sense that Gorbachev had been arrested. And there was Putsch... Initially, I didn’t understand what he was telling me. And then we immediately got into the car and went to the Supreme Council. The Presidium meeting was convened. And then there was one interesting thing… Then, actually, my… my suggestion was to ignore the event – we are out of it; this event does not concern us. But the older men –Škapars and Bišers [members of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Latvia] – understood that we could not do that.

Interviewer.

Armoured personnel carriers were on the bridges, right?

I. Godmanis.

I don’t remember that. We came from Jūrmala, and we didn’t see any armoured personnel carriers… No, they were not there yet.

And then I realised that we would not be able to do that in a simple manner… at the meeting of the Presidium... as if it didn’t concern us, as if we were already an independent state, and the Putsch was happening elsewhere. No, no... And then the statement was drafted. I was sitting next to Gorbunovs [Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Latvia]. He read out the statement. We went into his office and Kuzmin [Commander of the Baltic Military District] called. He threatened to demolish everything with cars and shoot everyone with tanks... There were no options! We were overtly threatened.

I went to the government building. I convened a meeting of the government. I immediately explained the situation. It was already being broadcast on TV that tanks were in Moscow. And then I said: “That’s it. We are leaving immediately. The government meeting will be held elsewhere. Not here.” And we went upstairs to the library and wrote on scraps of paper because we could not be certain… How could we be certain that the room was not bugged? We exchanged written notes. And we agreed that I would stay at the government’s building merely symbolically. And the government meeting would be convened at Igāte Castle.

It was interesting to decide how to show whether I was arrested or not... because nothing could be said if all the phones were bugged. We made a cunning plan – if the flag is raised, then I’m there; if the flag is down, I’m not. Something like that... I don’t recall precisely. But I guess it was like that. We were talking about the flag and specific answers that secretaries should provide. Because I understood that all hell would break loose.

We sent out Jurkāns [Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Latvia] to represent us. And then... Then unpleasant things started happening. I was constantly being informed that one building after another had been captured. One after another.

Interviewer.

The television building, the radio building...

I. Godmanis.

The telegraph office... OMON was in front, and the army followed. OMON – army. But in reality we were just thinking how much time it would take before they got to us.

Evening was approaching. Nobody was attacking us. And then my chief of security approached me and said that he was constantly being called and that soon grenades would be thrown through windows and that they were about to enter our building. And I said: “Why get all worked up? It can’t be helped.” I tried to send secretaries... Oh, and you had come to visit me that day... Was it the 19^th?

Interviewer.

Well, I had returned from Sweden.

I. Godmanis.

Well, then we can reconstruct the events together.

Interviewer.

Yes, we can.

I. Godmanis.

Vaznis was calling me.

Interviewer.

No, you called Vaznis, and later... That was sad.

I. Godmanis.

No, it wasn’t sad. But I… but he said: “Don’t come to me. I am surrounded.” He had already left his ministry by taking back roads... First of all, Kuzmin called.

Interviewer.

Yes...

I. Godmanis.

Kuzmin asked us to give up our arms because we were heavily armed. Vaznis at one time had agreed with the KGB – I couldn’t believe that – with Johansons [Chairman of the KGB of the Republic of Latvia] that we would take some of the KGB’s weapons.

Interviewer.

It was true.

I. Godmanis.

And we really brought some weapons from the KGB… I personally don’t remember… to the Council of Ministers. Of course, I asked Vaznis: “How will you get weapons from Johansons?” But he said: “I will get them”. Did he know what would happen...? And he had brought some weapons.... Did the soldiers know about that? I cannot be sure...

Interviewer.

They knew, and therefore they left seven machine guns on the first floor... “I need seven machine guns!” We turned them over to them.

I. Godmanis.

OK.

Interviewer.

We kept the remaining weapons, because the rest of the guards were on the second floor; there were no guards on the first floor.

I. Godmanis.

Yes. And then, of course, he started calling me and asking me to give them those weapons. Initially, I haggled with him. I didn’t understand why he was asking me for something if he could come and get it after neutralising me. And he... I had avoided agreeing once, twice, three times... And actually at one point we hadn’t managed to come to an agreement.

We had to go to a bunker downstairs. Then the security guards came. An unpleasant situation... Security guards came and asked: “What should we do?” Those security guys who had not left… I said: “There are two options. One option is to... I cannot guarantee the outcome. If you can get out, some of you can try to break loose.”

Interviewer.

Through the rear gate.

I. Godmanis.

Yes. We could not see if we had been surrounded, but it was clear that exits were blocked. I said: “At least some of you should try to get out. Those who want to.” I think that not many left. The rest of them asked: “What should we do”? And I sad: “If the army comes – the Russian army – I order you not to shoot because actually you will be shot first. But if someone else comes, for example,…” That can be disguised easily... And that wouldn’t be the real Russian army but some unknown forces who...

Interviewer.

You were actually talking about the OMON troops.

I. Godmanis.

Yes. Then they should try to resist. What else could I tell them? That was what I told them. They all were security officers to a lesser or greater degree; they came from the Ministry of the Interior. And we agreed on that. And then I almost... we went downstairs to the bunker when Kuzimn called again... It was late already – midnight, half past midnight or something...

OK. I understood that I had to play for time. We said: “OK, let’s agree on some 12 pieces...” I remember talking about pieces all the time. I didn’t know how many weapons we had...

And then the circus began. I was sitting with Edvīns [Inkēns, journalist] when an armoured personnel carrier approached. Then – who knows why? – there was a shot. Right – there was a shot, wasn’t there?

Interviewer.

Yes.

I. Godmanis.

I was sitting at the table, and Edvīns was sitting opposite. He looked at me and said that some people were retreating behind the trees in the avenue. Nothing else.

Interviewer.

Wait a second! The colonel came in...

I. Godmanis.

No, we had sent someone downstairs beforehand...

Interviewer.

Vītols met him...

I. Godmanis.

No, first we sent downstairs Bunka… He disappeared and didn’t come back upstairs. After a short while, we sent Vītols downstairs. Vītols didn’t come back upstairs. After Viešnieks didn’t come back, I said: “Now it’s our turn to go!” Then we heroically went down those stairs… We were quite few – security guards, Edvīns, myself… As we were going downstairs, we quite distinctly heard a shot. You know, the building of the Council of Ministers is quite large, so the sound was rather terrifying. I thought: “Finally it is obvious that we are going to get it!” But it turned out that one of the security guys had trouble in reloading his gun.

We came downstairs, but no one was there. It was a paradoxical situation. There was neither Bunka, nor… There was no one! We looked at one gate – there was no one there; we looked at the other gate – all the security guards had fled. What did we decide to do? To leave a part of our security guards at the gate. I went upstairs and phoned Kuzmins. It’s a good thing it was not recorded because the choice of words wasn’t especially refined. And I told him to return my people… that he instead of… although we turned over to him…

Interviewer.

Two people were physically missing, a security guard and the first orderly.

I. Godmanis.

Yes, they went away by car…

Interviewer.

The orderly came back.

I. Godmanis.

Yes, he did. But the Chief of Security took a car and dashed away somewhere to Latgale, and he reappeared only the next day at around three o’clock… He could have phoned at least! All right, I know he didn’t have a mobile….

All right. So we put those guards there. I phoned Kuzmins. He swore that he had nothing…

Interviewer.

And he claimed that it was done by the KGB.

I. Godmanis.

Exactly. So, nothing was clear. He said he would send a general as confirmation that he had nothing to do with it. I thought that was another trick and that this general would come and arrest us again. So I took a while to decide whether to receive this general.

We decided to meet with the general. … I don’t remember if those policemen came back meanwhile or didn’t… but the general came and reported; he snapped to attention: “Reporting”. I did not trust him at all. I said: “Where are the people? Where are my people? Have you arrested them? Where are they?” He said he was going to find out, and it was a misunderstanding…

At the end, it was as though… It is said that a patrol that represented the Riga garrison was passing by, and when they saw the armoured car pull in, they understood that the government was being taken over, and they heroically went inside. And there a captain or someone saw Vītols and put a gun to his stomach… And only then they finally understood that it wasn’t a capture but that something was being turned over there. And the one who came with the armoured car shouted at the other one and told him to get out… It was a typical Soviet event! Thank God, no casualties.

They took our security guards out and told them to go away. And so they…

Interviewer.

No, we are speaking about two persons only. The rest of our security guards were on site.

I. Godmanis.

Yes, they were. But those policemen downstairs…

Interviewer.

Guards from 1^st security post. All the rest were on the second floor.

I. Godmanis.

That’s right. And that was it. Finally, there was… The next day’s event that took place at three o’clock was a bombshell… And then… I could not understand the situation… In the Supreme Council, there was Krastiņš [member of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Latvia]. We constantly exchanged phone calls with Andrejs [Krastiņš]. He was also on his own there… I told him about the current situation and said that some general was coming, and we were probably talking for the last time…

Well, it may be funny or not… But during all that time I could not understand the logic of the action. OMON was nowhere near there…

Interviewer.

Hold on… You are mixing things up! That same night, our people who were posted somewhere at the external perimeter phoned us several times to say that armoured cars of OMON were coming our way. They were coming but then passed by.

I. Godmanis.

That was said to us all the time, but still they didn’t attack.

Interviewer.

No, they didn’t actually attack… it was meant for psychological intimidation. That night the situation changed mainly because you and the commander-in-chief were watching CNN and it was clearly evident there that the putschists were not succeeding. So he became less and less severe.

I. Godmanis.

It was weird, you know… The fact that they sent the general who reported… That was completely extraordinary…

Interviewer.

In order to apologise, in fact.

I. Godmanis.

Right, in order to apologise, in fact. Well…

The next morning there were huge problems when the Supreme Council convened. The very next morning… I took the floor and reported on the situation. I said that my Minister for the Interior is away, and the chief of security is absent… Then the old men got up, and Škapars… told me to give up the mandate… Can you believe that? It went like… What kind of head of government are you? Where are all your ministers – where are they?

And frankly speaking, I think it wasn’t fair because they had not experienced what I had. They were not at the Supreme Council. They were all away. Each of them was somewhere else… somewhere at home… But I was there; I was sitting at that table! But later on we… Later there was something going on…

Interviewer.

It was empty… I came inside the building of the Supreme Council on the 19^th… There was no one there…

I. Godmanis.

And then there was the second phase. On 21 August. Then it was a circus…

On 21 August, OMON troops for the first and last time were in the Dome Square… and then it was… that they were going to attack… Then it was necessary to evacuate the women from the Supreme Council, but they disapproved… And then finally when we were in the Supreme Council at the time of the vote, then I remember Dainis [Īvāns, Deputy Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Latvia] saying… that they were likely to attack us… Gorbunovs took his gun out and put it on the table… He said he was not going to give in simply like that, right there in that office. He put the gun in front of himself, and then I understood… that an interesting development was about to take place…

But then they went away from there as well… We adopted the… Then we sang the anthem, and all the OMON troops vanished…

And from that moment on, my only task was, without leaving the office, to make sure that the OMON troops were gone. It was because Yeltsin had arrived, and we could not provide adequate security for him because we did not have the necessary security guards … And then on 2 September, thank God, they left. They had to leave and…

And that was the end of it.