| Andris Bērziņš |
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Interviewer. ... Something had to happen. And then the Putsch began. And how did you... did you switch on the TV in the morning and watch the Dance of the Little Swans? What do you remember?
A. Bērziņš. The Putsch... That time was tense. I... how it began... for example, I remember January very well, when I was listening to the radio and felt that something was wrong... I don’t recall exactly how the events that were taking place in August began. But apparently they had been brewing for a while. What I remember most is that I received news from Valmiera that the chief of the local garrison had announced that he was seizing power; there were also rumours about graves that had been dug somewhere and lists that had been prepared… It was a very...
Interviewer. But what was the reality? Was the news about his seizing the power true? Did you go there?
A. Bērziņš. You know, yes; I went there, yes... to assess the situation. Then together with the chief of police, if I’m not mistaken, the chief of the vehicle inspection police, who was considered as... as a head of the town, was also there... I assume that there was someone from the local KGB, but I don’t remember exactly. I only know that I and the chief of police talked about what to do and what the situation was like... Because for him as well… he was representing the security and defence agencies...
Interviewer. Yes, yes, security and defence agencies....
A. Bērziņš. Yes, security, defence and law enforcement agencies... and it seemed to him as an old police officer, old not in terms of age but in terms of experience… it seemed to him very… He was very nervous. But we went there…
Interviewer. You went to meet with that army officer to that army unit?
A. Bērziņš. Yes, we went to meet with that army officer. Yes, we went… Maybe we were foolish to do that, but maybe we did the right thing… We were just thinking that if the situation is what it is, then we have to find out what it means because no one had ever experienced a situation when somebody announces that power has been seized.
Interviewer. And… you went there…
A. Bērziņš. Yes, we went there…
Interviewer. Did you get in?
A. Bērziņš. We were even welcomed. Of course, maybe I regret it now… The situation was too tense to ask, for example, on the basis of what document was all this happening and what did it all mean… We didn’t talk about that. We were rather…
Interviewer. How are we going to live?
A. Bērziņš. Yes, how are we going to live... because no one had… I think that it was that way, if my memory is not playing tricks on me… that young man, the young officer was also not sure what it all meant and what he was supposed to do. At least it seemed that way to me. And then we discussed what to do…
Interviewer. Bridges, post offices, telegraph offices… what had he done there? Or wasn’t it that bad?
A. Bērziņš. There was something like that… around noon… and then at around 3 o’clock, I think… in the afternoon the news came that things had turned out differently in Moscow. And everything ended with that.
Interviewer. Yes… but it was on 21 August. But what happened on the 19th and 20th? At that time over there in Moscow there was still…
A. Bērziņš. But there wasn’t… Apparently in the beginning strict orders were not received here, because, for example, the order to seize power, at least in Valmiera, was fortunately implemented on the last day.
Interviewer. In the morning of 21 [August]? And the situation changed in the afternoon...
A. Bērziņš. Yes, because I think that we actually... I am not certain, but I think that he was the first to receive that information and that he informed us about the change in the situation...
Interviewer. But wait... In the morning of 21 [August] you were in Riga? And you went there after you found out?
A. Bērziņš. Yes, yes...
Interviewer. And therefore you missed the historic vote at 1 o’clock. Tell us so that we have a clear picture.
A. Bērziņš. Yes, yes… I was there on that day, because…
Interviewer. If power has been seized, then…
A. Bērziņš. Yes, if I am informed that I no longer have authority… I have to go and see what it means because the situation was like that back then.
Interviewer. But you also knew that there would be voting... Somebody must have called you and told you, but you couldn’t make it...
A. Bērziņš. No, it was like... First, Valmiera is a long way from Riga. About that voting... I cannot put the pieces of my memory together precisely because twenty years have elapsed; the events of that time overlapped, and they all were alarming enough to…
Interviewer But, for example, I am very much interested in finding out what exactly… OK, the Putsch failed… What happened in Valmiera? Did you start to take over the properties of the party or what?
A. Bērziņš. You see... It was comparatively easy in Valmiera because it already had the new type of party secretary… Actually, there was nothing to take over. And therefore maybe Valmiera differed significantly from… Well, I assume that there were many… In the Cēsis district, for instance, there was nothing… there was no one from whom to take over… They were already taken over through organisations… there, for example…
Interviewer. But, for example, did you have an opportunity to meet the chief of the army unit later? What was the response there? Or did they sit in silence?
A. Bērziņš. They stepped aside, and that’s it. Like that…
Interviewer. After the Putsch?
A. Bērziņš. Yes, yes… There was no response. It might be interesting to find those archives some day and to see those documents, who had signed them, and if really… If here in Riga it was rumoured that there were lists… Were there any lists, or was it just… It all quieted down, and no one checked those documents; for example, no one tried to find out exactly what they contained. And I think that this matter is more important than changing names – was independence regained at this or another moment… Well... from the perspective of threats and rapid future changes, this aspect was actually more significant because it was…
Interviewer. But were you afraid… let’s say, afraid that you… Maybe afraid for your relatives? You should have been… there were rumours about those lists. Remember, there were rumours that those members of the Supreme Council who remained were supposed to meet at some church afterwards… Or have you forgotten about that?
A. Bērziņš. No, maybe I… at least I don’t remember that detail about that time… but there was an uneasy feeling… But was I afraid or not afraid… at that time there was fear… I regarded it as my duty. If things were happening, I had to go and assess the situation. As I already said, I had assessed all that from a practical perspective… If things were happening, I had to find out… what they meant and what should be done in order to prevent some kind of chaos because it was hard to predict… I think that in August that situation was not managed. There were, for example, major decisions which were the result… There was the vote for independence, but no one really knew how to act. Everyone had to make decisions in accordance with their scope responsibility. I tried to do that. If I was responsible for something, I had to be there till the end… But it’s good that it ended the way it did…
Interviewer. But what would be… What would happen if the Putsch had succeeded?
A. Bērziņš. I think that only archives can show that… If the information on that group in Moscow is true, then this group was very aggressive… Power could have been seized with the crudest methods… Anything could have happened… I don’t rule out the possibility that anything could have happened and that this was the most dangerous moment in this entire period.
Interviewer. August, not January?
A. Bērziņš. Yes, exactly August. Yes, I think that events that took place in August were organised with a particular goal… And it was fortunate that they could not gain power in Moscow, it was…
Interviewer. Actually everything depended on the outcome in Moscow… not here…
A. Bērziņš. We were actually… We did what we could, nothing more. We had no other option.
Interviewer. And, actually, the vote of 21 August was more symbolic in the beginning…
A. Bērziņš. No, I assume… if the outcome of the events in Moscow had been opposite, our vote would have had entirely different consequences.
Interviewer. In that case, yes.
A. Bērziņš. Yes, if we look at it from that perspective…
Interviewer. If the Putsch had succeeded, then at least legally it would have been…
A. Bērziņš. Yes, it would, if the situation had been different… But it is very hard to evaluate that now, and I think that if we could get those documents from the Russian archives, it would be a valuable contribution. That would be… well…
Interviewer. But then it actually turns out that from, let’s say, the legal perspective, 21 August is considered as less important than 4 May… I mean among people… Everyone remembers it [4 May] while 21 August is… although in a legal sense it is more significant…
A. Bērziņš. Of course it is more significant, at least for me it was much more… I remember it… that one day in particular, the announcement about the seizure of power here… That day for me… was rather… for example, it cannot be compared with 1949… Maybe that’s a childish… But these events are comparable. So there was no… it was not a game, it was action… and it might have been ruthless… |
