| Ints Cālītis |
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How did you find out about the Putsch?
I. Cālītis. I found out about the Putsch from official sources.
Interviewer. You probably heard about it on the radio in the morning.
I. Cālītis. I heard it on the radio, yes. I understood what it was all about right away although they weren’t calling it a Putsch or anything.
Interviewer. Well, yes, there was something like that…
I. Cālītis. Gorbunovs [Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Latvia] had gone on an unscheduled holiday to the Black Sea, yes.
Interviewer. Gorbachev.
I. Cālītis. Gorbachev, yes. And my children received money to buy packages of writing paper. I took my typewriter to another apartment. I had…
Interviewer. That was on the 19th [of August], the very first day, right?
I. Cālītis. Yes. I understood that I would have to go underground again; if I stayed at home in one piece, it would all settle down… But I took away from the house… I had a portable copying machine – it was a copying machine in a suitcase, and there was something for the cartridges and it was altogether quite heavy. I took that away from the house as well because I had borrowed this copying machine from dissidents from Moscow. I had already brought it over from there.
Interviewer. You told the children to buy paper.
I. Cālītis. Yes.
Interviewer. And what did you do next?
I. Cālītis. I immediately went to the Supreme Council, and I took part in all the processes going on there.
Interviewer. And what happened there during those days? What do you remember? Probably the last day, the 21st [of August], when there was the vote, right?
I. Cālītis. Yes. Well, the 21st, the vote…
Interviewer. Well, everything is… What did it feel like? The building of the radio has been captured; there is some barely audible underground radio broadcasting, there is no television….
I. Cālītis. When the attack in Vilnius took place, Linards Muciņš [member of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Latvia] called me; he called me at home in the middle of the night and told me to come to the Radio Committee right away. I know Lithuanian, and we had to transmit from Riga to the Lithuanians….
Interviewer. Well, that was in January.
I. Cālītis. Yes, yes, January, right.
Interviewer. But in August? In August there was no….
I. Cālītis. No, there was nothing in August. But it was clear that while we were discussing the draft law in the Plenary Chamber, Indulis Bērziņš was standing at the microphone and reporting on it. There was a debate, questions, answers, maybe some suggestions or amendments. Well, you would have to read the transcripts… And Daudišs was chairing the meeting. And Bērziņš said: “You know what? Let’s end the discussions, let’s vote because there are armoured personnel carriers in the Dome Square! We have to vote before they get here!” So Daudišs announced the vote, the light-board showed that 109 had voted “for”, some – “against”. But Daudišs announced that 111 had voted, not 109 as the light-board showed.
Interviewer. Well, so Indulis Bērziņš, who was on the rostrum…
I. Cālītis. The vote from the rostrum was counted…
Interviewer. Well then – who else?
I. Cālītis. And who that extra one was – no one knows, and he hasn’t been identified. We cannot ask Daudišs anymore, it has not been recorded on tapes, it is not in transcripts. But at that moment… well, Mucenieks remembers it best. He noticed that Vulfsons, a member of the Supreme Council, had come in from the back at the moment when “109” lit up on the board; he came to show that he hadn’t been present at the vote – something like that.
Interviewer. But he did come in?
I. Cālītis. Yes, he came into the Plenary Chamber, but he was not present at the vote.
Interviewer. Well, there is another question because it is not clear, for example, with Berķis, a member of the Supreme Council, who… who was… Well, remember how he climbed up on that stone wall, after the session and read out that law of ours, right?
I. Cālītis. Yes, yes.
Interviewer. But his mandate had not been approved although he was a member of the Supreme Council. Well, that is also a strange thing….
I. Cālītis. Honestly, this is an unclear issue. It is of no consequence because the vote has been taken; we have voted. And essentially on an international, legal level – if a presidential administration had been established in Latvia, if the Putsch had not failed in Moscow, if everything had gone according to the plan of the Putschists, then we would all have been expelled from that building in handcuffs or some other way; there would have been a rigged re-election or something of that kind…
Interviewer. Have you heard about some kind of lists that had supposedly been created with the names of those to be eliminated or something…? Well, something like that. Have you heard anything about that?
I. Cālītis. I have heard about it, but it has not been verified by documents; it cannot be verified. I have also heard that… we received a message from Russia that the old, ruined zones and camps have been restored, and brand new camps have been built in the forest.
Interviewer. I remember there was a statement or a scandal back then that a huge number of handcuffs had been ordered.
I. Cālītis. Supposedly. Yes, supposedly there had been a freight car full of handcuffs…
Interviewer. Well, but that is all….
I. Cālītis. Well, but that actually….
Interviewer. But what would have happened if the Putsch had succeeded? What would have happened with our country? As an experienced person, what do you think?
I. Cālītis. In any case, our vote of 21 August would not have changed anything anyway because we had already restored our national independence with the vote of 4 May. Well, of course, with the restrictions on the Satversme, our fundamental law.
Interviewer. But it is good that it happened, right?
I. Cālītis. The events of 21 August would not have been possible without those of 4 May. So there is no reason for the discussions as to which date is more important. Both votes are important. But without the 4 May vote, there would not have been the vote on 21 August. It is logical, isn’t it?
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Interviewer.