Saeima of the Republic of Latvia

Interviewer.

Were there any rumours in the Supreme Council that there would be a Putsch or something like that?

L. Muciņš.

No, I don’t recall anything like that. However, I do remember that during the barricades, Jānis Krūmiņš [member of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Latvia] was worried and said: “All of us will be shot.” And there was the thought that we should flee from the Supreme Council. Apparently someone had spread such rumours in order to get us to leave the Supreme Council because our philosophy was as follows: here we are, here we stand, and for this we stand; if we are meant to die we will die.

But about the Putsch...

Interviewer.

The essence of the question is this: Did you have a premonition about the Putsch?

L. Muciņš.

For me personally – yes. I have reviewed my speech which I delivered in Stockholm on…. Mondays were the days when defenders of the Baltic States gathered in that market square... My speech which I delivered approximately two weeks before the Putsch, contained definite hints... Now, of course, I think I could have spoken more openly... But there was something that I did during the barricades. During the barricades, I had another office in the current building of the Saeima committees, which housed the Land Service back then. I called Moscow all the time at their expense, and I came in contact with the Shchit [Shield] organisation in Moscow, where there were democratically-minded army men who, in turn, had contacts with democratically-minded KGB officers. There was also a member of the Supreme Council of the USSR who died. I don’t remember… ah, Schepatihin [Schekochihin]... They informed me. I just reread what I had plainly said. On 18 January the newspaper Diena reported that at a press conference on the previous day Muciņš had stated: “Military aircraft have arrived, shit has hit the fan, the shooting will begin.” And on the 20^th, the shooting did start. Of course, Andrejs Krastiņš [Deputy Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Latvia] called it all nonsense and so on... because Mirlin [head of the Press Service of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Latvia] could not [arrange] such a press conference for me... I could not say that my informers from Moscow had told me that they were getting ready over here... so there was a delay... They could not tell me where, and they could not tell me how, but they clearly said that OMON was the hub where everything would be initiated; in addition to OMON, there would be others, and that meant that special-force units had also arrived.

It was said then. But...

Interviewer.

It was about the Alpha unit.

L. Muciņš.

Now we are using it here... You see, a report of the Alpha unit concerning Lithuania was found. At the time of the Putsch, this report was found... But there is no such report concerning Latvia; that report contains information on how many people were shot, how many machine guns and walkie-talkies were lost, how many bullets were expended, how much… at what time they assembled, where they changed their clothes, what cars they drove, what they did. The report contained everything... The report of the Alpha unit was published in the Russian media. But there either is no such information about Riga… about the barricades… or it has not been found.

But, anyway, I had the office at the Land Service, where information was gathered. Why do you think I was among the candidates for the post of the Director of the SAB [Constitution Protection Bureau]? Where do you think it came from? It is because I had worked with them... I had one office at the radio building and another one there. I was not a frequent visitor at the Supreme Council building, and I did not participate in those affairs because I felt that I knew better what I had to do. I am a one-man orchestra. I selected those whom I needed. My secretary Kusiņa answered the calls from Moscow while I was away...

Of course, I assume everything was monitored, but there was also information about what would happen on the 20^th, about the shootings and so on, and about the tense situation... But the question was about the Putsch, wasn’t it?

Interviewer.

About the Putsch.

L. Muciņš.

Yes, so they gave me some kind of… I mentioned it in my speech… I still have it… It was a list of all the Putschists. But, of course, one couldn’t... it was… Lukyanov [Chairman of the Supreme Council of the USSR] was also on the list, though he managed to avoid criminal charges...

Interviewer.

But he was arrested anyway...

L. Muciņš.

I have spoken about that; I have written an article... I had it from the Muscovites... And I found that I had delivered one speech or published an article here and delivered another speech and published another article in Sweden. It means... Actually, I am wondering about the Central Investigation Agency that it… if I had something, they should have had seven times more... So I am wondering about all that. So, from that point of view, yes. But to say that it...

Of course, I had… many complained because the barricades had been dismantled; if something happened, we wouldn’t be able to defend ourselves. They were irritated... On the one hand, Godmanis [Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Republic of Latvia] and Gorbunovs [Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Latvia] wanted to dismantle them in order not to annoy the Russians; on the other hand, they forced us to remove them in order to attack us more easily... I think it is clear now that those conferences that we had at the Academy of Sciences…. Soldiers who were blocking the bridges during the Putsch told us that they had explicit orders: a) not to let people from the countryside come [to Riga] and b) not to allow heavy-duty vehicles to come [to Riga]. They had learned that lesson from the barricades in January, and they had drawn conclusions before the Putsch in August. And of course, they had resolved to do what they didn’t do in Lithuania – to occupy the radio and television buildings.

In Latvia they didn’t go as far as they did in Lithuania – to occupy the radio and television buildings. However, in Lithuania, they released them, as far as I understand…. Lithuanians showed that Lithuanian officer who was supposed to be the news announcer… Did he work or didn’t he? ... But I guess neither Latvian Radio nor Latvian Television was working; they somehow….

Interviewer.

They had not prepared the news announcers.

L. Muciņš.

Honestly, I don’t know. It is strange somehow because in Lithuania they had prepared the news announcers, and in Lithuania… in Vilnius they were working with that Interist ideology... But here, I don’t know... So the mistakes were corrected. On the other hand, apparently that confrontation had to be extremely bloody, or it was clear that everything was... Metastases of Latvia’s disease had reached Moscow; actually, Moscow was the decisive point, but Latvia had a minor role. But at the same time, Latvian Radio was ready for that, and a secret transmitter was used; there was no information about that. I told the Liepāja guys an hour earlier that something had to be taken out of the transmitter in order to stop the broadcasts. It turned out that nothing had to be taken out – the broadcasts simply had to be transmitted. And the best part during the Putsch was that in the transmission tower, the transmission system in Liepāja, which was managed entirely by Russians…. Putschists were calling there and asking: “Why are you broadcasting CNN?”… or Moscow... No, I think they were broadcasting CNN, which, of course, was broadcasting everything that was going on in Moscow. “Turn it off!” But they replied: “We transmit the signal that we receive!” The signal came from somewhere in Dundaga, where a satellite dish was put up, and it transmitted the broadcast into the system. I don’t know how it was in Riga; in Riga I didn’t see anything, but in Kurzeme we were watching CNN all the time, at least in Liepāja… because during the Putsch I was in Liepāja. On the morning of the Putsch I was in Liepāja.

Interviewer.

How did you learn about the Putsch?

L. Muciņš.

Well, on the radio. I was shaving in the morning when I heard the news. I think I made a phone call to Riga; I guess the phones were working at that time. So I contacted Riga about the situation... Actually, at that point there was some activity in Liepāja as well; we were gathering at the Popular Front Liepāja branch, and I was... for two days... it was the 21^st, and this picture was taken on the afternoon of 21 August. So, I was in Liepāja, and I was a member of the Supreme Council elected from Liepāja; therefore, I went to the Popular Front office, to the Executive Committee office to have at least some communication because at that time we did not have mobile phones... Well, I made a couple of phone calls from home, I guess... And then we held some meetings. Later on, if memory serves me right, at one point the communications were cut... When I was in Moscow, they told me they had separate telecommunication lines, such as railway communication lines; something similar was in operation via the high-voltage grid, but I was using... we also had this telephone connection with Riga via the television tower, so I contacted the Supreme Council and asked them whether I should come as soon as possible or something like that... At that time, Endziņš [member of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Latvia, Chairman of the Legislative Issues Committee of the Supreme Council] did not think it was necessary for me to come... I believe it was on Tuesday because the Putsch started on Monday; Sunday was the 18^th, Monday was the 19^th, and Tuesday was the 20^th of August... And so we tried to do what had to be done, for there was this head of the garrison, the first-rank captain who was assigned... put in charge of the city... so we had the Executive Committee meeting... and somewhere around 10 o’clock, I believe, we heard the announcement by Gorbunovs. The radio station was still on the air... I think... because the television building was stormed later, on Monday, if I’m not mistaken...

Interviewer.

Yes, yes... the radio station was taken a bit later... At the very beginning, the radio station was operational, and we heard Gorbunovs’ announcement.

L. Muciņš.

Anyway, we were aware of Gorbunovs’ announcement, and we knew about the general situation... I think it was a resolution of the Supreme Council rather than just the Chairman’s announcement. The resolution was adopted, yet I could not go to Riga. I don’t know; I think I wasn’t supposed to because the plenary sitting was not scheduled for that Monday, I think. So I dealt with these issues locally in Liepāja. So, where did I start? The newspaper was prepared and printed in Liepāja... Then in the evening, I saw officers with machine guns breaking into the newspaper’s editorial office... that was in Liepāja... However, first of all, they did not know where the paper was printed; second, they did not know the newspaper had its own printing house. They first stormed the large printing house located next to the editorial office, but that was not where the newspaper was printed... But the information had already been leaked... People at the editorial office were smart enough not to wait until seven or eight o’clock in the evening to print the paper as usual. They prepared the paper by three o’clock, printed it by four o’clock and then took the copies to a secluded place outside the editorial office. And then we discussed various topics... engaged in different activities... I don’t remember exactly. We took the copying machines from the Popular Front office and the Executive Committee and carried them to the so-called secret apartments for safekeeping... we did not have personal computers at that time, and copying machines were regarded as a powerful weapon. I didn’t sleep at home that night... at least I think I didn’t... And then around five o’clock in the morning I went to the post office where newspapers from Riga were distributed. This is where we brought the Liepāja paper that we had managed to hide. And then we simply watched as the papers were loaded onto the trucks to be distributed among districts and Liepaja’s regional post offices... At that time no one even... Well, they were kept in the dark; they had no information whatsoever, since they, you know... This is when the city of Liepāja... They totally forgot about the radio transmission centre of Liepāja, which, instead of broadcasting on air, transmitted the signal through wires... So the radio centre plugged into Voice of America and went on retransmitting their broadcasts for a couple of days...

About the television... As I said before, the Russians from the television tower responded to the Putschists: We just retransmit the broadcasts that we receive without even being able to censor the contents... That’s it. Thank you and please leave... And somehow they swallowed it, ranted at the door for a while and finally left. I went there to make phone calls to Riga; they had a direct line to Riga... And this is what they told us the next day about these events... And this is how we were able to follow the events...

And then again, next to the Justice Building... Nearby in the courtyard of the Justice Building, we had the Liepāja garrison, i.e., a navy garrison, which contained the military tribunal and the prosecutor’s office. And it turned out that the officers, who were some type of half colonels or something, the judges and the prosecutor... They were quite annoyed by something because there was some kind of ill will between them and the military KGB officers. I nagged them by visiting at least two to three times a day, for I was eager to know what the army was about to do... I must say they were well-informed about the situation. And they did not support the Putsch. At least they didn’t.

Well... They came up with criminal charges against the first-rank captain Stalev for treason. Just like that.

Interviewer.

And what about the Putsch? Was it over yet?

L. Muciņš.

Well... it’s difficult to remember the exact day... Whether it was Tuesday or Wednesday... Of course, they probably saw everything... They were obviously supporters of Yeltsin... Besides, the newspaper Atmoda or the official newspaper of the Liepāja branch of the Popular Front published the decision to dismiss the charges, which, in fact, meant that they were all promoted and relocated to the motherland, Russia – somewhere where their careers could thrive... Later on, of course, I had to struggle hard to convince the leadership of the Supreme Council to sign telegrams... I tried to convince them that it was not enough to dismiss Kuzmin [Commander of the Baltic Military District] and others whom you in Riga regarded as the culprits. I also struggled to ensure the dismissal of the Commander of the Baltic Military… of the Baltic Fleet in Kaliningrad because he was the one who gave the order to initiate the Putsch, likewise the Prosecutor of the Baltic Fleet and all the fogies who gave orders to their subordinate prosecutors... Actually, I tried to defend the people who had this... well, sooner or later... let’s not judge everyone... for you can put any time and date that you want on a decision, but you have to reach a certain level of maturity for this...

This is what they did... I think we can go back to this topic later if you are interested.

Interviewer.

Did you ever think of the consequences in case the Putsch succeeded?

L. Muciņš.

No, generally speaking, we did not think about such a possibility. Even if we thought about it... somehow... we simply didn’t have the experience... And even if some of us had had some experience in dealing with politics back in the 1970’s, it was simply set aside for a while because everything happened so fast.

And you also asked me about the barricades and the 3^rd and 4^th of May... As I said, it all happened so fast that we didn’t have the time to stop and think. Maybe today….Now they have a plenary sitting a week, let’s say for one hour... question-and- answer sessions as in normal Western parliaments... They could set the time for that from nine to ten o’clock. If they cover all the questions sooner, the plenary sitting could start at half past nine. If not, they could finish with the questions by ten o’clock and go on with the plenary sitting. This is how it’s done in Western parliaments. But here they are finished in about one hour...

But back then, we had no time to spare... All types of events. Were they real or imaginary? Exchange of information is a good example... We didn’t have mobile phones at that time... We had to meet in person, use land lines, and go to places... Well, of course, we had the feeling that our conversations were being bugged and so... Because we were dealing with the Putsch... I came, and the plenary sitting was already in progress... Wait, no... the sitting was held later... And then we had this takeover of the KGB with all the archives and all the commotion... How can you stop and think in a situation like that?